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citycop
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: True_Bob]
      #1416112 - 11/21/08 02:25 PM (71.63.66.118)

Quote:

Not to mention that none of this excursion gets back to my point, which is that there is no need for a creator - it's just a way of refusing to admit "I don't know", as opposed to using the electrochemical marvel in your skull to find real explanations for why things are as they are.




Bob, can there be infinite regressive causation? If not, you need an uncaused cause.

Try this little experiment. Stand in front of a line of dominoes that stretches back infinitely. Now wait for the domino in front of you to be knocked down by the one behind it. But wait, that one falling depends the previous one causing it to fall, which depends on the previous one causing it to fall, which depends on the previous one causing it to fall, which depends on the previous one causing it to fall, which depends on the previous one causing it to fall, which depends on the previous one causing it to fall, which depends on the previous one causing it to fall, which depends on the previous one causing it to fall, ad infinitum.

The universe is governed by cause and effect, no getting around that. Whether it was one big bang, or a series of thousands of big bangs as the universe expanded and contracted back in on itself over and over again, that series of causation cannot be infinitely regressive. Otherwise it would be like the infinite line of dominoes.

You were caused by some effect, which was caused by a previous effect, and so on. Guess what Bob? If there was no Uncaused Cause, Prime Mover, or whatever you want to call it, you don't exist. I guess you don't have to go to work tomorrow.


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True_Bob
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: citycop]
      #1416129 - 11/21/08 02:55 PM (204.108.8.5)

Just because something isn't understood doesn't mean the solution is in The Wandering Jew's Big Book of Bronze Age Fairy Tales.

BTW, thank you for demonstrating the use of a god in place of "I don't know".

PS the universe/multiverse is NOT a line of dominoes.

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vipper
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: True_Bob]
      #1416178 - 11/21/08 04:53 PM (75.199.52.45)

true-bob I believe you and many others just like to hear your self and truly have no interest in the subject. So why even come to the the Religion Forum.
some how you have gotten lost. If you chose that path then fine. You argue to argue. Thats just classic.
The big words don't change the Facts.
Maybe with all that intellect you can find some wisdom in the book THE HOLLY BIBLE.


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senor
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: vipper]
      #1416185 - 11/21/08 05:07 PM (72.205.5.98)

Actually, I think he's pretty interested in how some people could think the end of the world is nigh, and their zombie is ready to send him to hell. And really interested that people with crazy beliefs like that don't do stupid things to screw up the lives of relatively sane people.

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senor
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: citycop]
      #1416186 - 11/21/08 05:12 PM (72.205.5.98)

Actually, there's a lot of research the field of multiverses and oscillating universes. Regardless, what created the creator? I don't see how identifying it as God makes the answer any more easier to accept. And how anybody could possibly identify that creator as a particular denomination's of a particular religion's concept of a god. How do you know the universe didn't really come from unicorn farts or leprechaun burps? What evidence do you have to reject those over the Abrahamic concept of god? If one prefers to make decisions based on actual evidence and observation, agnosticism is the only logical choice. And as Stephen Colbert would say, atheists are just agnostics with balls.

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vipper
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: senor]
      #1416189 - 11/21/08 05:26 PM (75.199.52.45)

Well I guess for you, your truths are still being formed.

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senor
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: vipper]
      #1416192 - 11/21/08 05:39 PM (72.205.5.98)

wut

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vipper
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: senor]
      #1416194 - 11/21/08 05:48 PM (75.199.52.45)

you will get it. give it a little time.

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True_Bob
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: vipper]
      #1416195 - 11/21/08 05:49 PM (71.62.194.16)

Quote:

Maybe with all that intellect you can find some wisdom in the book THE HOLLY BIBLE.




There's good lessons in all kinds of holy books.

Your choice is one I'm pretty familiar with. Did you know it regulates (while permitting) slavery, endorses incest and commands genocide? It's full of all sorts of atrocities, ignorance and silliness. It does have some lessons, though (even beyond "Never taunt a bald prophet"). Have you ever heard of The Jefferson Bible? Thomas J took the NT and removed all the magical stuff to get to the meat of the morality in it. He compared the miraculous bits to Athena coming out of Zeus' skull.

BTW, Senor has it right - I get concerned about folks trying to regulate my actions with their silly beliefs turned into laws. I respect your right to believe what you want, but I will exercise my right to ridicule silly beliefs.

Also, you are partly right. I DO like to argue. You are wrong in that I have a great interest in religions, from an anthropological perspective. Did you know there are a number of bible stories that derive from older stories? Gilgamesh refers to a much older flood and salvation story. Krishna was crucified/nailed to a tree long before your Jesus. Evolution of religions is a subset of the evolution of civilizations.

FYI, there are MUCH more interesting religions than your chosen myth set.

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vipper
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: True_Bob]
      #1416197 - 11/21/08 06:05 PM (75.199.52.45)

I'm not interested in interesting concepts, I'm interested in the truth. Not myths.

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True_Bob
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: vipper]
      #1416199 - 11/21/08 06:16 PM (71.62.194.16)

Quote:

I'm not interested in interesting concepts, I'm interested in the truth. Not myths.




All religions are myths.

Why don't you worship Thor? He's going to save us all at the End Times.

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vipper
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: True_Bob]
      #1416201 - 11/21/08 06:23 PM (75.199.52.45)

do as you please. I'm not going to change my Views.

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True_Bob
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: vipper]
      #1416202 - 11/21/08 06:28 PM (71.62.194.16)

I'll never ask you to change your views. I'll want you to keep them out of the government, and I'll mock and challenge you on them, but I won't ask you to change them.

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Ezekiel2517
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: vipper]
      #1416207 - 11/21/08 06:43 PM (71.191.95.195)

Quote:

I'm not interested in interesting concepts, I'm interested in the truth. Not myths.




That's why you look to your God. You don't know the truth so you need something to fill the void. It's a natural reflex and it will suffice until a better explanation comes along from those who seek truth and don't just accept it as they are told.

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tayker
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: citycop]
      #1416289 - 11/21/08 09:46 PM (98.118.248.27)

Quote:

Absolutely, Zeus is a myth. As has much of Medieval "scientific fact" been proven to be. The expression of God developed in ancient Greek culture did not ring true against the test of human experience. As did the expression of Medieval science fail against the test further discovery. But just because Ancient Greek expressions of religion or Medieval expressions of science were immature compared to our understanding, does not mean grains of truth were not present, or that science and religion are now shown to be false pursuits. If anything, that we advanced beyond the ancient understanding of God further demonstrates our innate desire to seek God.



God, or knowledge? Plus, conquering adversaries goes a long way to spread a belief.

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citycop
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: True_Bob]
      #1416408 - 11/22/08 09:36 AM (71.63.66.118)

Quote:

Just because something isn't understood doesn't mean the solution is in The Wandering Jew's Big Book of Bronze Age Fairy Tales.

BTW, thank you for demonstrating the use of a god in place of "I don't know".

PS the universe/multiverse is NOT a line of dominoes.




Focus Bob, focus. I have not referenced Scripture as proof of anything, I am arguing from a purely rational perpective. The domino analogy is simply used as an illustration of the dynamics of cause and effect. Whether cause and effect is seen in a line of dominoes, or in the formation of dark matter in the moments following the big bang, cause and effect is the dynamic that governs the universe. Since logicically there cannot be an infinite regression of causes, there must be an uncaused cause.

As a side note, I understand the application of the term "multiverse" as used by physicists to encompass realities that must logically exist, but cannot be directly observed through empirical observation. However, I think it is a bit of an oxymoron. The term "universe" by very definition includes everything that exists.

Nevertheless, lets get back to the question. As there must logically be an uncaused cause, using reason alone, what can we know about it?


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citycop
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: senor]
      #1416418 - 11/22/08 09:53 AM (71.63.66.118)

Quote:

Actually, there's a lot of research the field of multiverses and oscillating universes. Regardless, what created the creator? I don't see how identifying it as God makes the answer any more easier to accept. And how anybody could possibly identify that creator as a particular denomination's of a particular religion's concept of a god. How do you know the universe didn't really come from unicorn farts or leprechaun burps? What evidence do you have to reject those over the Abrahamic concept of god? If one prefers to make decisions based on actual evidence and observation, agnosticism is the only logical choice. And as Stephen Colbert would say, atheists are just agnostics with balls.




The "who created the creator" question goes back to the the infinite regression of causes question. There must logically be an uncaused cause, or uncreated creator if one prefers a more religiously poetic term. However, since the discussion is about using reason alone to determine whether or not God exists, we ought remain in that realm and should keep religious imagery out of the process.

Arriving at the logical existence of an uncaused cause does not necessaily mean that one can make the leap of naming some divine being as the uncaused cause. All we can do is ask the next question, what can reason tell us about the uncaused cause?

By the way, you still have not answered the question about the rules of evidence. What do you consider to be reliable evidence for the existence of something?

Edited by citycop (11/22/08 10:13 AM)


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citycop
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: tayker]
      #1416432 - 11/22/08 10:10 AM (71.63.66.118)

Quote:

God, or knowledge? Plus, conquering adversaries goes a long way to spread a belief.




I think there is a distinct thirst for God. However, that in itself does not establish God exists, but it is noteworthy the desire itself exists.

I think we should be careful about trying to use either atrocities committed by people in the name of religion or good works accomplished in the name of religion, as an argument for or against the existence of God. It is a little like using atrocieties committed or good works accomplished through science to support or deny the existence of dark matter or some other logical construct.


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True_Bob
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: citycop]
      #1416433 - 11/22/08 10:11 AM (71.62.194.16)

Quote:

Quote:

...PS the universe/multiverse is NOT a line of dominoes.




Since logicically there cannot be an infinite regression of causes, there must be an uncaused cause.
...

As there must logically be an uncaused cause, using reason alone, what can we know about it?




Why must there be an uncaused cause? You haven't provided any logic to explain it, you just assert that it is logically so. From my perspective, you are trying to fit the question into a given answer. It's the same logical conundrum we deal with in terms of "How can the universe be infinite?" coupled with "What's beyond the edge of the universe?" The answer is not contained within thought exercises but observations of the universe's behavior.

This is simply another case where we either don't understand and/or don't have the information to come to a conclusion. You want to fill the gap with a god. I see that as a copout (a citycopout? ) for "I don't know". Posting a god as the solution or first cause does not advance any understanding, it actually pushes to halt further investigation.

My reference to multiverse was intended to point out that we aren't sure how many dimensions the universe has. If we can only observe a fraction of the universe's dimensions, we cannot make complete conclusions about the nature of the universe.

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citycop
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: True_Bob]
      #1416437 - 11/22/08 10:17 AM (71.63.66.118)

I certainly have. There cannot be an infinite regression of cause and effect because each effect depends upon its' cause, which depends on its' cause, which depends upon its' cause, etc. If that regression is infinite, we are still waiting for the cause that produced the effects that make up this moment. Can't get around it Bob.

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tayker
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: citycop]
      #1416439 - 11/22/08 10:23 AM (98.118.248.27)

Quote:

I think there is a distinct thirst for God. However, that in itself does not establish God exists, but it is noteworthy the desire itself exists.

I think we should be careful about trying to use either atrocities committed by people in the name of religion or good works accomplished in the name of religion, as an argument for or against the existence of God. It is a little like using atrocieties committed or good works accomplished through science to support or deny the existence of dark matter or some other logical construct.



You think it's a thirst for a God, I think it's a thirst for knowledge.

Also, I wasn't talking about atrocities. I was talking in general terms, which is true. Look at Greeks to Romans to Christianity. Whether you're conquering Greeks or pagans, the dominating power's belief system always takes over.

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citycop
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: tayker]
      #1416442 - 11/22/08 10:32 AM (71.63.66.118)

I believe we're in general agreement, and it may be splitting hairs, but I think people thirst for more than knowledge alone. People not only seek to know how things work, they also want to know why. It goes beyond a desire to know the facts of life, it is a desire for the meaning of life.

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True_Bob
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: citycop]
      #1416462 - 11/22/08 11:11 AM (71.62.194.16)

Quote:

I certainly have. There cannot be an infinite regression of cause and effect because each effect depends upon its' cause, which depends on its' cause, which depends upon its' cause, etc. If that regression is infinite, we are still waiting for the cause that produced the effects that make up this moment. Can't get around it Bob.




The problem is with the human ability to contemplate "infinite", and failing that, your desire to give a name and purpose (fully loaded with baggage) to that postulated first cause.

By definition, the "Big Bang" is the moment when time and dimension came into being. The question you are pursuing, "What was before the Big Bang?", isn't even wrong, it's a total non-sequitor (like "Why did Plato conquer the Incans?"). I hope that's clear enough for you to understand wrt time.

You prefer a cyclic model (which is unsupported by observation), so your infinite regress pushes the problem backwards. When you get to your god, I will ask you "Where is the cause for your god?" If none is needed, if your god "always was", why can't that answer suffice for the universe? (it can). If a cause is needed, you are back to your regress. It's because you are not following the evidence, you are driving towards a particular, desired answer. There is no evidence for any sort of creator, and your answers to support it could be used with just as much validity wrt to the original question (i.e. whence came the universe? - it always was.). Tossing some being into the mix does not provide an answer, it just lets you make your infinite regress into a finite regress, thus avoiding the "I don't know" of infinity.

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True_Bob
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: citycop]
      #1416464 - 11/22/08 11:12 AM (71.62.194.16)

Quote:

I believe we're in general agreement, and it may be splitting hairs, but I think people thirst for more than knowledge alone. People not only seek to know how things work, they also want to know why. It goes beyond a desire to know the facts of life, it is a desire for the meaning of life.




Your life has the meaning you assign to it.

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bbc
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: citycop]
      #1416471 - 11/22/08 11:41 AM (70.177.182.142)

Quote:

Whether cause and effect is seen in a line of dominoes, or in the formation of dark matter in the moments following the big bang, cause and effect is the dynamic that governs the universe.



Disagree.

Quote:

Since logicically there cannot be an infinite regression of causes, there must be an uncaused cause.



Logically?
Logically, you should not make so many assumptions.
Here's three you've just implicitly made:
Does everything that happens in the universe occur with cause?

Why couldn't there be an infinite regression of causes? Have you implicitly assumed finite time?

Why must there be only ONE uncaused cause?

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: citycop]
      #1416493 - 11/22/08 12:37 PM (71.62.112.138)

I am asking what evidence do you use to determine that there is a god?

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vipper
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: DevilsAdvocate]
      #1416501 - 11/22/08 01:08 PM (75.196.124.63)

The presence of the holly spirit.
Wisdom that advances time.
Healing of the sick.
If your mind is closed to this, then you will never now.
arguing every word or phrase will server to no purpose.
Being to smart for your good , comes into play here. Your wisdom stumps you and rejects what it can't reason with.
you chose to reject the possibility and there for you will never be open to the gifts of God.


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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: vipper]
      #1416508 - 11/22/08 01:19 PM (71.62.112.138)

Please, give up the joke. You can't be this ignorant can you? Or am I wrong again?

How do you detect the presence of the holy spirit? Healing of the sick, gimme a break. Please show your work on your claim that wisdom advances time.

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vipper
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: DevilsAdvocate]
      #1416515 - 11/22/08 01:30 PM (75.196.124.63)

You will never know with your attitude.
Here's a place you may try for some answers.
http://everystudent.com/features/faith.html?gclid=CMah76m1iZcCFQu-Ggod9XrO_Q


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True_Bob
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: DevilsAdvocate]
      #1416532 - 11/22/08 02:49 PM (71.62.194.16)

Quote:

Please, give up the joke. You can't be this ignorant can you? Or am I wrong again?




I suspect it's more indoctrination than ignorance, or perhaps a form of willful ignorance. vipper is so desperate for his/her/its beliefs to be true that his/her/its mind is shut to natural explanations.

The saddest part is that life is so impressive, but he sees a magic trick. Every last living thing on this planet is related, however distantly. Beautiful garden, no faeries in it.

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citycop
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: True_Bob]
      #1416739 - 11/23/08 08:24 AM (71.63.66.118)

You are avoiding the fundamental question. How did the big bang come about? What caused it? The question is not a non-sequitor. Either you have misapplied another debating term, or you are unaware that science has spent billions of dollars and countless man hours trying to answer that very question.

I do not "prefer" a cyclic model. I mentioned that theory because it holds that the big bang was caused by the previous big bang which caused the universe to expand and then shrink in on itself, causing the next big bang, and so on. Both the single big bang theory and the recurring big bangs theory cannot overcome the problem of infinite regressive causes because one still has to account for a first cause.

You have also not answered the question regarding the rules of evidence. What do you consider to be reliable evidence for the existence of something?


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citycop
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: bbc]
      #1416767 - 11/23/08 09:59 AM (71.63.66.118)

Quote:

Logically?
Logically, you should not make so many assumptions.
Here's three you've just implicitly made:
Does everything that happens in the universe occur with cause?

Why couldn't there be an infinite regression of causes? Have you implicitly assumed finite time?

Why must there be only ONE uncaused cause?




Science is convinced that everything in the universe has a cause. As a matter of fact, science is not satisfied with the answer, "We just don't know the cause", or "We can't find the cause, so it must not have one". No, science will continue the relentless search for it.

The very function of science is discovering the causes of the effects we see, whether it be the cause of cancer, or the cause of black holes. Some causes are obvious and some have yet to be discovered. Nevertheless, given the trillions of cause and effect relationships that have been established against the absence of affirmative proof that some effect in the universe exists without a cause, it is logical to conclude that everything in the universe is governed by cause and effect.

Let me provide another illustration as to why there cannot be an infinite regression of cause and effect. You are here because you were caused by your parents, and they are here because they were caused by their parents, and so on. Your existence could not come about before your parents' existence. So your existence depended upon your parents existing before you, and their parents existing before them, and their parents existing before them, etc. We can follow that back through generations, through evolution, through the primordial slime, through the formation of the earth, through the formation of stars, through to the big bang.

The big bang is also an effect, so what caused it? Science has already established that the universe had a beginning, but really can't speak to the validity of the cycle theory yet, so it remains just a theory. But, just for the sale of argument, lets say that the big bang was caused by a previous universe expanding then shrinking in on itself after a previous big bang, and that previous universe was caused by the previous big bang, which was caused by the previous, and so on.

That regression cannot be infinite because our universe could not exist before our big bang brought it about, which depended upon the expanding and shirinking of the previous universe, which depended upon the expanding and shirinking of the previous universe, which depended upon the expanding and shirinking of the previous universe, and so on. If that regression was infinite, we would not exist because our existence depends upon the previous universe existing before that, which depends upon the previous universe existing before that, which depends upon the previous universe existing before that, and so on. To put it simply, if that regression was infinite, we would still be waiting for the previous universe, which would still be waiting for the previous one, which would still be waiting for the previous one, and so on.

Whether our universe is the effects caused by a single big bang or a cycle of big bangs, there must logically be a first cause. There must logically be a beginning. That first cause must be uncaused, otherwise it is not really the first cause, whatever caused it would really be the first cause, and whatever caused that would really be the first cause, back into the problem of an infinite regression of causes. Thus, logically there must be a first cause and that cause must be uncaused.

I did not say there must be only one uncaused cause. The question of whether there can be more than one uncaused cause can only be answered by first determining if such a thing exists. Then we can ask the next question, what can we know about it? But first things first.


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citycop
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: DevilsAdvocate]
      #1416768 - 11/23/08 10:03 AM (71.63.66.118)

Quote:

I am asking what evidence do you use to determine that there is a god?




The evidence I am presenting in this discussion.


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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: citycop]
      #1416769 - 11/23/08 10:11 AM (71.62.194.16)

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You are avoiding the fundamental question. How did the big bang come about?




I don't know. I'm really sure that there wasn't some human-like magic being that made it "happen".


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What caused it? The question is not a non-sequitor.




Yes it is. The big bang is the start of time and space as we know it. There was no "before" the BB.


Ask a NASA astronomer. As I told you before:

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Was there really no time at all before the Big Bang?


As I have mentioned in a previous question, we do not know what the state of the universe was like at the Big Bang and beyond.

Our best guess at this time suggest that time and space as we know these concepts will become rather meaningless as the universe enters a purely quantum mechanical state of indeterminacy. Cosmologists such as Stephen Hawking suggest that the dimension of time is transformed via quantum fluctuations in the so-called "signature of the spacetime metric", into a space-like coordinate so that instead of 3-space and 1-time dimension, space-time becomes a 4-dimensional space devoid of any time-like features. What this state is imagined to be is anyone's guess because as humans trained to think in terms of processes evolving in time, our next question would then be, What came before the Hawking space-like state? There is no possible answer to this question because there is no time in which the concept of 'before' can be said to have a meaning. The question itself becomes the wrong question to ask.





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Either you have misapplied another debating term,




Not yet I haven't - you know I used the NTS remark properly (unless you still haven't looked up "anticipate"), and I just showed you, again, that questions about "before" the big bang don't make sense.

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or you are unaware that science has spent billions of dollars and countless man hours trying to answer that question.




I refer you to the above.

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I do not "prefer" a cyclic model. I mentioned that theory because it holds that the big bang was caused by the previous big bang which caused the universe to expand and then shrink in on itself, causing the next big bang, and so on.




Current theory about big bang, supported by observations that objects in the universe are accelerating apart, is that there will not be a big crunch.

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Both the single big bang theory and the recurring big bangs theory cannot overcome the problem of infinite regressive causes because one still has to account for a first cause.




Would you please be consistent? If it's an infinite regress, there is no first cause (perhaps you are misusing or mistaken about the term "infinite"). If you want a first cause, you MUST use a finite regress. Not that it matters in the case of the big bang.

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You have also not answered the question regarding the rules of evidence. What do you consider to be reliable evidence for the existence of something?




It depends on the topic. For cosmology, I'd suggest using scientific evidence.

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citycop
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Reged: 11/11/04
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Re: Seperation of Church & State [Re: True_Bob]
      #1416770 - 11/23/08 10:14 AM (71.63.66.118)

What caused the big bang?

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