cassandra&sarasdaddy
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Conflicting reports of what happened next, from 4 p.m. to dusk, led to the controversy. Union sources claimed that even though the Union troops surrendered, Forrest's men massacred them in cold blood. Surviving members of the garrison said that most of their men surrendered and threw down their arms, only to be shot or bayoneted by the attackers, who repeatedly shouted, "No quarter! No quarter!"[7] The Joint Committee On the Conduct of the War immediately investigated the incident and concluded that the Confederates shot most of the garrison after it had surrendered. A 2002 study by Albert Castel concluded that the Union forces were indiscriminately massacred after Fort Pillow "had ceased resisting or was incapable of resistance."[8]
This was disputed by Lt Daniel Van Horn of the 6th U. S. Heavy Artillery (Colored) who stated in his official report "There never was a surrender of the fort, both officers and men declaring they never would surrender or ask for quarter."
On the other hand, Forrest's men insisted that the Federals, although fleeing, kept their weapons and frequently turned to shoot, forcing the Confederates to keep firing in self defense.[7] Their claim was substantiated by the large number of Federal rifles that were found on the bluffs near the river (see Jordan, THQ). The Union flag was still flying over the fort, which indicated that the force had not formally surrendered. A contemporary newspaper account from Jackson, Tennessee, states that "General Forrest begged them to surrender," but "not the first sign of surrender was ever given." Similar accounts were reported in both Southern and Northern newspapers at the time.[9]
there is a certain urge after a beating to claim the fight was unfair kinda like folks who start a fight get thumped then call the cops we have some of those here
i would be interested in burquas source
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under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.
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liveandlearn
Master FUGer
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a lot of the Confederates who deserted wanted to go upnawth and find work and get away from it all...
maybe so - All I can speak for is my own family. They didn't desert and not a one of them went north (except for a brief professional stay and that's only from my generation on).
Geographical loyalty is an interesting thing - ties to the place of your birth and family. How else to explain why the non-slaveholders joined up.
I'd be interested to see whatever data you have on the numbers of Confederates conscripted - who they were, where they came from, when they were conscripted. My impression was that Johnny Reb was defending territorial authority/integrity ("the homeland") more than "way of life." The mountain folk, for example, as well as the deep South, remain notoriously independent.
My historical knowlede is intimate, familial - I have a lot to learn as to the wider picture.
As to her great-grandfather getting out of Point Lookout alive, my mother said it was because he didn't drink the water. Other than that, he never talked about it except to say he hoped "Old Brady (the jailer) burned in hell." Maybe he drank urine and/or rainwater - he never said. My mother doesn't know how long he was there.
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Burqajoint
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I'm sending a general apology for my own tendency to wander off topic - it's just the way my brain works. Feel free to talk around my digressions. I understand completely.
Fine with me.
I am having a hard time resisting bringing up that world tour Z.Z. Top did circa 1977 where they decided to bring Texas to the world.
They went around with haybales and longhorn skulls on stage and had a cow way way way up on a forklift and all I can remember is someone at the time asking Ted Nugent about it and he said he wanted to shoot the cow up on the forklift...
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Have you heard the news? There's good rockin' tonight!
Iraq Death Toll as of February 1, 2010: 4,378
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Burqajoint
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I don't have any numbers on Confederates who deserted but after major battles they numbered in the thousands at times, same with the Union.
a lot of times the opposing army did not put them in a prison camp, they just paroled them and turned them loose after signing a paper saying they would fight no more.
War that savage just turns people from it and they get to where they don't want any more of being in the middle of hundreds or thousands of dead and dying people and seeing them mowed down.
Some of the Southerners went north to get away from it because the South was an armed camp with everyone and everything turned to the war effort and it wasn't quite like that in the North, plus every able-bodied man was called up down South and people would ask why they were not at the front.
Still, many went home when they heard of Sherman's retreat to the sea because they were worried about their families.
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Have you heard the news? There's good rockin' tonight!
Iraq Death Toll as of February 1, 2010: 4,378
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liveandlearn
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No, I meant how many Southerners were conscripted (forced to join against their will)?
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Gt
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Sounds like it depends upon who feels they are winning or losing - at any given moment - even within the context of time spans.
When considering the "laws of war", it wouldn't hurt to also consider the "Express Orders of Conflict". ;-)
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US Wounded 36,010/+160 this period
What neolibs/neocons have in common is trendy authoritarianism rather than equalitarianism
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mfloyd
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Quote:
No, I meant how many Southerners were conscripted (forced to join against their will)?
I thought most of the Southerners mostly volunteered, and sort of came and went as they could...
I know that the stats on Confederate casualties at the Battle of Fredericksburg are unclear because no one knew for sure how many had already left to go home for Christmas...
The Northerners, on the other hand, were conscripted against their will. Unless, of course, they had the money to buy themselves free...
Funny how we kept that tradition alive during the Vietnam War... It gave people like Cheney and Limbaugh a chance to survive and do good for their country in other ways... 
Heh heh... Look what northern victory gave America. 
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"All political states, benign or tyrannical, exist on a foundation of popular consent."
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cassandra&sarasdaddy
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they were enlisting the irish off the docks in new york kill two birds with one stone fight the war and kill off the irish
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under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.
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mfloyd
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they were enlisting the irish off the docks in new york kill two birds with one stone fight the war and kill off the irish
Funny... Didn't the English try that in Scottland, too? Send in the Irish first...
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"All political states, benign or tyrannical, exist on a foundation of popular consent."
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Burqajoint
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Quote:
Quote:
No, I meant how many Southerners were conscripted (forced to join against their will)?
I thought most of the Southerners mostly volunteered, and sort of came and went as they could...
No, they drafted every male from 14 - 45.
Plus there was very little dissent and everything was mobilized for the war effort.
I recall reading Grant say it was a foolish question to ask any Southern man after the war whether he had served because they all did, except I guess the politicians and bureaucrats.
Before Appomattox, Lee's army was disintegrating because of all the guys who were leaving and for some time before that their morale was pretty low, while that of the feds was running high.
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The Northerners, on the other hand, were conscripted against their will. Unless, of course, they had the money to buy themselves free...
No, I don't think they had conscription on any sizeable scale. Indeed, at the beginning at least they were turning volunteers away in droves.
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Funny how we kept that tradition alive during the Vietnam War... It gave people like Cheney and Limbaugh a chance to survive and do good for their country in other ways...
Cheney ran out of deferments and then displayed incredible timing when he got his wife pregnant just as he was going to have to register and got out of it that way.
I think the kid was born the week he was going to have to register, or something real close like that....
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Have you heard the news? There's good rockin' tonight!
Iraq Death Toll as of February 1, 2010: 4,378
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cassandra&sarasdaddy
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No, I don't think they had conscription on any sizeable scale. Indeed, at the beginning at least they were turning volunteers away in droves.
wrong
and were i you i wouldn't bring up deferments
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under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.
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cassandra&sarasdaddy
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http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h249.html
http://www.teachervision.fen.com/us-history/resource/5669.html
http://www.lib.niu.edu/1997/iht429713.html
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under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.
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mfloyd
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Quote:
No, I don't think they had conscription on any sizeable scale. Indeed, at the beginning at least they were turning volunteers away in droves.
Yeah, here are some of those "droves..."
New York Draft Riot of 1863
And perhaps the best example of Yankee tolerance and acceptance of the black man:
(See quote in Paul Revere thread: "History: The stories that made America, the stories America made up.")
It's easy to make yourself look good when you win. Robert E. Lee managed to look and be dignified when he had to surrender.
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"All political states, benign or tyrannical, exist on a foundation of popular consent."
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cassandra&sarasdaddy
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the term scalawag comes to mind or quisling wonder why that is
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under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.
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mfloyd
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Oh yeah, just to get you involved: The group lynching and burning the black man was Irish... 
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"All political states, benign or tyrannical, exist on a foundation of popular consent."
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cassandra&sarasdaddy
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i figured that
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under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.
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liveandlearn
Master FUGer
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Quote:
I meant how many Southerners were conscripted (forced to join against their will)?
sounds more like a pro forma conscription, especially given that there was so little dissent.
I think floyd is right - most were more than willing to fight. Depending on how close to home they found themselves, some came and went - some started drifting off near the end of the war.
The thing is, some of us have grandparents who are only a generation removed from the war. My grandfather's father was a young child during Sherman's March and recalled it vividly (nobody there but women and children and in the blink of an eye nothing to eat but peanuts and sweet potatoes and smoldering embers where your bed used to be. Where I come from, oral history counts.
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Burqajoint
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Same here.
My ancestors not only passed down things to remember, hell, I am a direct descendant of Gen. Joseph E. Johnston, who opposed Sherman.
What I said about conscription was correct.
What I said about the Union turning people away in droves at the beginning was also correct. At the beginning of the Wo-wuh, they had far more volunteers than were requested.
What I said was right about deserters was accurate also.
It wasn't just at the end, but it did increase as the Confederate Army was increasingly demoralized.
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Have you heard the news? There's good rockin' tonight!
Iraq Death Toll as of February 1, 2010: 4,378
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cassandra&sarasdaddy
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whats your source that disagrees with the union officer from fort pillows account?
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under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.
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Burqajoint
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Nathan Bedford Forrest.
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Have you heard the news? There's good rockin' tonight!
Iraq Death Toll as of February 1, 2010: 4,378
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liveandlearn
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there is a difference between a pro forma draft of people who are more than willing to serve and a draft of people who would rather defect to Canada. You don't address this point altho I have raised it several times.
As I said, I can only speak to my own family. They served from the beginning to end. Yes, they were demoralized. Hard not to be.
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cassandra&sarasdaddy
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Nathan Bedford Forrest.
so where is this account tht you allude to? i posted links to the union officer who was there's report that contradicts yours.
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under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.
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Burqajoint
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A draft is a draft.
I am unaware of any where the political opinion of the draftees determined whether they were selected.
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Have you heard the news? There's good rockin' tonight!
Iraq Death Toll as of February 1, 2010: 4,378
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Burqajoint
Permanent FUG Fixture
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Quote:
Quote:
Nathan Bedford Forrest.
so where is this account tht you allude to? i posted links to the union officer who was there's report that contradicts yours.
Long ago I read his account of what took place. I recall him saying something about the river running red with blood.
Sorry, I don't have a reference, it was so long ago.
If I have time I'll see if I can find something, but this is a minor point and not something I am very concerned about.
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Have you heard the news? There's good rockin' tonight!
Iraq Death Toll as of February 1, 2010: 4,378
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liveandlearn
Master FUGer
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oh burqua don't be dense - the point is there's policy (universal draft) and reality (where everybody's already serving because they want to).
There is HUGE latitude in the connotation of "draft/conscription" -
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cassandra&sarasdaddy
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"Long ago I read his account of what took place. I recall him saying something about the river running red with blood.
Sorry, I don't have a reference, it was so long ago."
that blood thing happens in war when people fight. you ever get close to it you might see that.the troops at fort pillow did get slaughtered. when the gunboat didn't use its guns to cover their withdrawal. think that could be because the guys on the boat were white yankees and didn't care to save the black troops getting slaughtered?
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under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.
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Gt
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Quote:
If I have time I'll see if I can find something, but this is a minor point and not something I am very concerned about.
About as minor as those Korean statistics you're so obsessed with when it suits you. 8-}
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US Wounded 36,010/+160 this period
What neolibs/neocons have in common is trendy authoritarianism rather than equalitarianism
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