oisin
FUGmaster Flash
Reged: 07/24/02
Posts: 20928
Loc: Fredericksburg
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I believe in the independence of moral values, whether from God or not, and I believe that moral values come from human beings alone, whether or not God exists.
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Just how intelligent can someone be if they quote Sarah Palin and pretend it is their own?
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Dweebs
Mega FUG
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 9042
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I believe in SOME of the 10 commandments.
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oisin
FUGmaster Flash
Reged: 07/24/02
Posts: 20928
Loc: Fredericksburg
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you dont think man would know right from wrong with out the 10 commandments?
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Just how intelligent can someone be if they quote Sarah Palin and pretend it is their own?
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Dweebs
Mega FUG
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 9042
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I'm not a religious person, but I know right from wrong. That's why I said I agree with SOME of the 10 commandments. The commandments make for some good ground rules to follow.
I don't know exactly where my ideals for my morals come from.  But, my morals are there.
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treeclimber
FUG Dignitary
Reged: 12/14/02
Posts: 28759
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I believe each of us has what we consider our own set of moral values, some cross the lines of religion some cross the barriers of country and race.I also believe in "basic human rights" which includes the freedom to choose as long as it doesn't interfear with someone elses basic human rights. For instance I can have the freedom to worship as I choose but I must remember others do also. My own morals tell me this is right. Sometimes we make mistakes with what we think is right and wrong but there are some things we all believe is right and wrong without question, cold blooded murder is wrong, forcable rape is wrong, child molestation is wrong. Even when we disagree on the small stuff the big stuff stays the same for all.
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One is one too many, one more is never enough.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
That's why I said I agree with SOME of the 10 commandments.
Which Commandments do you disagree with?
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Dweebs
Mega FUG
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 9042
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Oh, just the ones specifically referring to God. Thou shalt not have another God before me..type stuff. I'm not a religious person, therefore I don't feel the need to "obey" those commandments.
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XBeast
FUGmaster Flash
Reged: 12/02/02
Posts: 23470
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Why obey any of them?
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“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand” Milton Friedman
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Dweebs
Mega FUG
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 9042
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They sound like good ground rules to me. I could "disobey" them if I wanted, but I wouldn't feel good about myself. They are rules that I would have given myself had they not already been there. 
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Elric
Mega FUG
Reged: 04/08/03
Posts: 7898
Loc: Va
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mo·ral·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-rl-t, mô-)
n. pl. mo·ral·i·ties
The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality;
A rule or lesson in moral conduct.
Now as to what is moral and what isn't......that Is realative to every person. I do not allow other people to force there morals on me, and I would never force my morals on them!
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The worst part of putting something in a cage, is never really knowing what side of the bars you are on.
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SVKenney
Mega FUG
Reged: 12/16/02
Posts: 8688
Loc: Fredericksburg
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Shaun
http://www.shaunkenney.com
A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
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fishvafam
FUG Frequent Flyer
Reged: 02/20/03
Posts: 1159
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Quite right. God is the ultimate authority for right and wrong. Otherwise, laws are simply arbitrary enforceable by those with the most power for their own personal desires.
A good example is murder- why is it wrong? Either God says its wrong or it really doesn't matter who kills who and why.
Example: If you were to say murder was wrong (and left God out of the picture), what ultimate authority could you point to say that I or anywone couldn't kill you simply because we felt like it?
Ultimately then, moral absolutes descend from God or all you have is anarchy as your absolute.
fvf
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Dweebs
Mega FUG
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 9042
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My morals don't come from God or an anarchy. Why don't I kill people? I don't think it's right to cause harm to someone else. Why don't I steal things? I don't think it's right to take something that isn't mine. If I don't pay for it, I can't have it. If someone doesn't give it to me, I can't have it. I'm not going to go to someone's house and decide "Hey, I like this TV, I'm going to take it home with me and keep it for myself." Why don't I go out and cheat on my boyfriend? I wouldn't want him to do the same thing to me. It's not fair to my boyfriend to stay faithful to me if I don't stay faithful to him. Why don't I go out and molest kids or rape someone? I wouldn't want someone molesting me or anyone else, and I certainly don't think it's right for one to force themselves on another person.
These things have absolutely nothing to do with God. Yes, some of these things could lead back to something that "God" says we shouldn't do, but that's not why I think they are wrong. I'm not going to go out and knowingly and intentionally hurt someone just because IIIII don't feel that it's right to do so.
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treeclimber
FUG Dignitary
Reged: 12/14/02
Posts: 28759
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Quote:
Quite right. God is the ultimate authority for right and wrong. Otherwise, laws are simply arbitrary enforceable by those with the most power for their own personal desires.
A good example is murder- why is it wrong? Either God says its wrong or it really doesn't matter who kills who and why.
Example: If you were to say murder was wrong (and left God out of the picture), what ultimate authority could you point to say that I or anywone couldn't kill you simply because we felt like it?
Ultimately then, moral absolutes descend from God or all you have is anarchy as your absolute.
fvf
What about the morals of those who don't share your belief in "God" what do you think makes them not do those things?
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One is one too many, one more is never enough.
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SVKenney
Mega FUG
Reged: 12/16/02
Posts: 8688
Loc: Fredericksburg
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Shaun
http://www.shaunkenney.com
A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Well for the non-religious, it's not about God, but basic common sense. If I were to say it's okay to kill then I would be inviting harm to myself. If I condone stealing, then you could help yourself to my property. Anarchy doesn't enter the picture.
If I could prove to you absolutely that God does not exist (just try to imagine) would you become a bad person simply because you wouldn't have to answer to your maker? I seriously doubt it.
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XBeast
FUGmaster Flash
Reged: 12/02/02
Posts: 23470
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Where do we get these morals or standards then? Who created them in the 1st place? Is there a record in society of these being adopted?
What is wrong with killing someone? (just for sake of discussion)
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“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand” Milton Friedman
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Hitler also killed homosexuals, guess you left that out for a reason?
For the most part, moral law is that of the conscience. If one has no conscience such as Hitler, it's hardly proper to state he took a " moral " stand on anything. People who decide to kill or " exterminate " have no " moral " bearing.
Your arguement that " laws should always reflect moral law " would forgive all tyrants for acting in what they call their " moral " right to do so. Which is absurd.
Natural law is that which is natural to a particular person. It's assumed by too many that natural law applies to all when in fact, it's only " natural " to them. Lions are natural killers, does that mean all things should stop and let them kill them?
Life isn't as simple as following the Bible, it's far too complicated to look in the Bible for all answers, otherwise, there would be no reason for scientist or medicine.
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SVKenney
Mega FUG
Reged: 12/16/02
Posts: 8688
Loc: Fredericksburg
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Shaun
http://www.shaunkenney.com
A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
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treeclimber
FUG Dignitary
Reged: 12/14/02
Posts: 28759
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Quote:
Quote:
What about the morals of those who don't share your belief in "God" what do you think makes them not do those things?
Because as created beings, they still reflect the eternal law of the Creator, which is why certain ethics such as "don't kill" and "don't steal" are generally held in common.
Read the links that I provided in my previous post. That should answer most questions about where natural law theory comes from.
I mean no disrespect to those who follow the Bible faithfully, I just have my own way of understanding and believeing in "God", which I am sure differs from everyone here. I also believe that those who choose to hide behind the Bible aren't seeking any truth, in fact they may be running from it, to disprove anything written in the Bible will surely cast doubt on what is remaining.
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One is one too many, one more is never enough.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Aquinas is coming from the 11th century, I'm living the 21st..
I don't know if you left Catholics out for a reason too, only you would know that. It's the same thing I know about Aquinas, he left out that which may not have agreed with his public thoughts as did many before that era and do today.
You know what Aquinas wanted you to know and nothing more as you would of any human.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I don't know if you left Catholics out for a reason too, only you would know that.
I believe Mr. Kenney stated he is Catholic, or it seemed so in the humor forum.
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SVKenney
Mega FUG
Reged: 12/16/02
Posts: 8688
Loc: Fredericksburg
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Shaun
http://www.shaunkenney.com
A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
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tayker
FUGmaster Flash
Reged: 05/12/03
Posts: 18977
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I agree. I think Atheists are good examples of this.
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I'm a peripheral visionary
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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You're right, 1225 to 1274.
In reponse to your " Such as " comment. I can only answer, it's human nature not to tell all. To suppose Aquinas would not do the same, is to ignore human nature. He was a human ?
" Disjointed thought ". How so?
I didn't ask if you were Catholic * points to all previous post by droberts *
Without the peripherials, SVKenney, we rarely know the " rest of the story " 
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SVKenney
Mega FUG
Reged: 12/16/02
Posts: 8688
Loc: Fredericksburg
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Shaun
http://www.shaunkenney.com
A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Back to " Such as ? ", I don't " know " if he was honest. Only he can answer that and since he died in 1274, I doubt you " know " either. You may assume he was and I may assume he may have been but, neither of us " know ".
Second issue " honest ". You shouldn't read things into anything I say. If you take care, you'll note, I never said he was " dishonest " nor did I imply it. Again, I don't " know ".
I'm sorry you can't compute the meaning of the word " know " when it's in a statement about knowing something.
There was nothing " transparent " in the comment I made. I simply stated, you left out gays. don't read between the lines.
Wasn't trying to win. Just making an observation about your opinion of one man having it right.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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'Bout time I answered I suppose. 
I guess this is one of the most basic differences between believers and skeptics. Believers need answers. As a skeptic I say why does their have to be an answer?
As for killing, it's wrong because if it weren't, there would be total chaos and possibly human life would be no more. It's a matter of survival.
I've not explained my self too well. Sorry. I shall go get more caffeine and try again later.
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XBeast
FUGmaster Flash
Reged: 12/02/02
Posts: 23470
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I will differ a bit with you. I am a believer and I am not looking for any answers. But then, I have had a ton of caffeine and sugar this morning!!! 
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“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand” Milton Friedman
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